Horrific beyond words. But Pat, thankfully you have those words that need to be said and heard about the horror. I will be broadcasting this YouTube video to the yet unconverted. I hope very much that others do too.
It's schtick, not shtick. Every time I see this I want to correct it. I'm glad you're a voice for us, Pat and I appreciate you. I'm Jewish and speak Hebrew, my grandparents spoke Yiddish. You can, I guess, spell me however you want but schtick is correct and shtick isn't.
Thank you, Pat. As difficult as that was to listen to, it's a necessary lesson in what the Israelis are dealing with every day. The Palestinians were offered their own state in 1948. They turned it down. They were offered a state in 2000. Arafat turned it down without even thinking about it.
Those supporting propal say that the attitude of the palestinians, as you described, is the result of many years of aggression by Israel against them, starting from what they call the nakba. They claim that from that time there has been no movement to resolve what they claim as the right of return.
Remember i am on your side.
Your article, for those who support Israel, is full of greivance. How could people do this to innocent people, and to top it off name streets, squares and display photos of these darstadly evil killers. And some of them were women ! And they celebrate them as heros.
Whats my point ?
Firstly if we are trying to win over the demonstrators at the propal or university campuses all over the world you will have zero traction because they have already accepted that the present day barbarity of Hamas or Fatah or whatever other group is due to the sum total of their frustration in not getting what they want. Secondly your article resonates with those supporting Israel. Of course. Israelis are like you and me .. civilised and sophisticated people . And these type of people would never do these types of barbaric things. So we have an unresolved standoff. We try to win by taking the high ground by saying you palestinians need to be civilised and your not going to return whilst they (effectively) reply well we hate you and will kill you whenever and where ever. well under these conditions we get no where.
Whats the solution. Dont know.
But its not to tell the guys on Israeli side how civilised they are and how barbaric the palestinian side is.
I suggest a better way is to use direct clear language.
Dear palestinians, you lost the war, your not coming back. Sorry about that. To which they may reply. Ok you will get more of the same. We may further reply that we will destroy your homes and land. And make clear you will do it.
Then start negotiating from that position. When one side gets tired peace will come.
I have had some success in changing the minds of Americans who are poorly informed and just think agreeing with extremists, like the JVP makes them "on the right side of history." I try to concentrate on talking about the indigenous people of the Americas, who were indisputably subjected to a genocide that is ongoing. I say that because all of their white oppressors were invaders from Europe and all stole their land and all committed grotesque and horrendous crimes against them, we can argue that nothing they did in resistance was wrong, not gang rapes, or burning people alive, or torturing them to death, or abducting them and treating them viciously. These warriors were my ancestors on one side of my family. I'm 1/4th Cherokee. And I feel they were justified. But would we support this behavior today or consider it a way to reach peace? I wouldn't. Would they be okay with some American Indians breaking into their home and torturing the family to death? Should the people who live in my people's ancestral home, Georgia, be forced violently to give up their property to the descendants of the Indians they stole it from? (I would like a nice house in Atlanta, if so.) If not, then why is Israel different? This does stop many from screaming about land stealing colonizers. It always helps if some of my indigenous friends are with me when the confrontation starts, as they always say "what about my right to return?"
Thanks Robert. You are correct, I think. However, I am not trying to convince those who are steadfastly opposed, such as the "pro-Pal" demonstrators. I am trying to push neutral people off the fence. The point of the article, ultimately, is that the violence is not a result of what Israel does, but about the indoctrination to kill.
Horrific beyond words. But Pat, thankfully you have those words that need to be said and heard about the horror. I will be broadcasting this YouTube video to the yet unconverted. I hope very much that others do too.
Thanks Helen!
Well ranted. Clear concise. Good research.
It's schtick, not shtick. Every time I see this I want to correct it. I'm glad you're a voice for us, Pat and I appreciate you. I'm Jewish and speak Hebrew, my grandparents spoke Yiddish. You can, I guess, spell me however you want but schtick is correct and shtick isn't.
Hahaha. Thanks! My research says schtick if German(ic) and Shtick is Yiddish. Thanks for your kind words though.
Thank you, Pat. As difficult as that was to listen to, it's a necessary lesson in what the Israelis are dealing with every day. The Palestinians were offered their own state in 1948. They turned it down. They were offered a state in 2000. Arafat turned it down without even thinking about it.
And Israelis are dealing with it again today in the worst way.
I agree with you. Let me offer the following.
Those supporting propal say that the attitude of the palestinians, as you described, is the result of many years of aggression by Israel against them, starting from what they call the nakba. They claim that from that time there has been no movement to resolve what they claim as the right of return.
Remember i am on your side.
Your article, for those who support Israel, is full of greivance. How could people do this to innocent people, and to top it off name streets, squares and display photos of these darstadly evil killers. And some of them were women ! And they celebrate them as heros.
Whats my point ?
Firstly if we are trying to win over the demonstrators at the propal or university campuses all over the world you will have zero traction because they have already accepted that the present day barbarity of Hamas or Fatah or whatever other group is due to the sum total of their frustration in not getting what they want. Secondly your article resonates with those supporting Israel. Of course. Israelis are like you and me .. civilised and sophisticated people . And these type of people would never do these types of barbaric things. So we have an unresolved standoff. We try to win by taking the high ground by saying you palestinians need to be civilised and your not going to return whilst they (effectively) reply well we hate you and will kill you whenever and where ever. well under these conditions we get no where.
Whats the solution. Dont know.
But its not to tell the guys on Israeli side how civilised they are and how barbaric the palestinian side is.
I suggest a better way is to use direct clear language.
Dear palestinians, you lost the war, your not coming back. Sorry about that. To which they may reply. Ok you will get more of the same. We may further reply that we will destroy your homes and land. And make clear you will do it.
Then start negotiating from that position. When one side gets tired peace will come.
Read Andrew Fox’s very recent Substack piece on the fantasy of snuffing out Hamas in Gaza. It’s utterly chilling, because I fear he’s right.
What is to be done? No one, it seems, has an answer that is practicable or ethical. I feel, against my most ardent wish, hopeless.
I have had some success in changing the minds of Americans who are poorly informed and just think agreeing with extremists, like the JVP makes them "on the right side of history." I try to concentrate on talking about the indigenous people of the Americas, who were indisputably subjected to a genocide that is ongoing. I say that because all of their white oppressors were invaders from Europe and all stole their land and all committed grotesque and horrendous crimes against them, we can argue that nothing they did in resistance was wrong, not gang rapes, or burning people alive, or torturing them to death, or abducting them and treating them viciously. These warriors were my ancestors on one side of my family. I'm 1/4th Cherokee. And I feel they were justified. But would we support this behavior today or consider it a way to reach peace? I wouldn't. Would they be okay with some American Indians breaking into their home and torturing the family to death? Should the people who live in my people's ancestral home, Georgia, be forced violently to give up their property to the descendants of the Indians they stole it from? (I would like a nice house in Atlanta, if so.) If not, then why is Israel different? This does stop many from screaming about land stealing colonizers. It always helps if some of my indigenous friends are with me when the confrontation starts, as they always say "what about my right to return?"
Thanks Robert. You are correct, I think. However, I am not trying to convince those who are steadfastly opposed, such as the "pro-Pal" demonstrators. I am trying to push neutral people off the fence. The point of the article, ultimately, is that the violence is not a result of what Israel does, but about the indoctrination to kill.
Thankyou Pat, for your reply. Keep the good work.
Well said. The thing is, most people in the West seem to echo the bloodthirsty rhetoric.