The holocaust essentially proved Zionism right. And the 'special' treatment Jews receive, along with calls to dissolve or dismantle the state of Israel, are all the proof we need that it should and must exist.
There are so many cogent points here, and so many flashes of brilliance, one would have to quote the entire piece to say which were the standouts. Jewish nationalism = bad; Palestinian nationalism = good is an utterly brilliant exposure of the hypocrisy of the Free Palestine rent-a-crowd.
A dear friend who said she'd read a history book provided by my dual-national Zionist husband told me the Brits were the reason the Jews got a state, so wasn't there a small question about the Jewish right to self-determination? I didn't know what history she thought she read but reminded her that the Brits abandoned the Mandate and left the small question up to the U.N. People think what they are conditioned to think. I especially like your point about good and bad nationalisms, yes, yes, yes, and yes.
Nearly half the Jewish population of Israel are descended from those that were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries. While in the fantasy of some left wingers they are "Arab Jews," they and their parents are the ones who know the Arabs best. That is why they are the most supportive of the hard line, right wing parties. They are the ones who know best how Jews would be treated if they were a minority in a newly created country,
Of course one only needs to see how Shia treat Sunni, how Arabs treat Kurds, how Syrians and Sudanese treat their own citizens to know that a 22nd Arab country would not only be a nightmare for the Jews, but also for its Arab inhabitants.
By the way, Dan, what you called boundaries, and what many people call the 1967 borders, are no such thing. They were the 1949 cease fire lines between Israel and Jordan. There never was a peace settlement or a negotiated border. The Jordan River became the new 1967 cease-fire line. There never was a legal Arab entity that controlled East Jerusalem and what is called the West Bank.
Sadly, for the Arabs, there is no way that Israel can relinquish military control over Judea and Samaria so there is really very little choice but to leave the Arabs in what are essentially Bantustans. They never will have the equivalent of a Nelson Mandela because that is not part of their culture. South African blacks were essentially raised in an English educational system, which had the seeds of human rights and the ideals of democracy. The Arabs are being raised in their schools to have hatred of Jews, and under the Islamist, or previously the secular terrorists, the PLO, they were taught that ultimately Israel must disappear, and the best way to do accomplish that is armed struggle ,
It should be noted that 95% of the Arabs are living in the area designated area A , which is under the control of the Palestinian Authority, so they already, in a sense, have her own government. Regardless, it cannot be independent because that would allow Hamas to take over and give Iran a foothold in that area, which would present a threat not only to Israel, but also to Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
I've been an American citizen since I was born here in the 1950s. We have our fair share of "nutty racists" in our multi-ethnic democracy, including some current members of Congress. And some with knee-jerk ethnic preferences.
I also lived in Israel for several years, though not recently.
Your comparison of "Indigenous" Arabs to the experience of black South Africans during apartheid shows me you seriously misunderstand the history of the Middle East, especially the Jewish experience there.
I’m glad you’ve remained an American and are part of our difficult but great mosaic. Please stay and be an active participant as we seek to address the huge challenges confronting America. The United States is your homeland, just as it is mine.
Obviously, my comparison of Israel, as a country based on severe ethnic preferences, Bantustans and apartheid, to South Africa annoys you. But one simple fact is undeniable. If Eretz Israel ever takes place, and that is the clear intent of the right wing Zionists who now dominate Israeli politics, there will be at least as many Arabs under Israel’s governance as there are Jews. The proposition that the Palestinians will somehow continue to be stateless people while “from the river to the sea” Israel continues as “the Jewish state” defies reality.
In one way or the other Eretz Israel will be a state of all of its people. You and I can be honest with each other and say that its possible that half or more of these people will be essentially politically disenfranchised in a way that is not very different from blacks in South Africa in the 1980s. This cannot be a source of pride for people inclined to support Israel, and it obviously won’t be tenable when it comes to the continued huge charitable support of Israel by American taxpayers.
Given what you say one wonders why Israel seems to be moving mindlessly in a direction that is destined to make anything but a one state solution, with that state containing as many Arabs as Jews, impossible?
Israel has borders. 800,000 Israeli Jews now live illegally outside those borders in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. If the Israelis want to live in a Jewish democracy, move those squatters back within their country’s boundaries.
Or change the boundaries. Israel is going to have to keep military control over those areas in any case. I’ve been to the areas, there’s actually plenty of room for more people to move to. And, considering the distinct possibility that, due in great part to the anti-Jewish sentiment being spread by a growing Muslim population in Europe and America, Israel will actually need to use some of that space to settle new immigrants.
Nonsense comment. I have no problem with the existence of Israel within its boundaries.
That said I fully expect a single state in all of Palestine since the 800,000 Israeli Jews (and zero Israeli Arabs) living illegally outside of Israel have scrambled the egg such that a two state solution isn’t possible.
That single state will have as many Arabs (Muslims and Christians) as Jews so it will certainly no longer be a Jewish state. Instead it will be a state with two tribes on one land. Some of the nuttier racists in Israel may try to create a system of ethnic repression and Bantustans but that cannot be sustained, as we saw in South Africa. As the ANC did, indigenous Arabs will resist and find their Mandela.
It’s been long understood that Israel could be a Jewish state and a democracy within its national borders. When it seeks to expand to incorporate everything from the river to the sea it cannot be a democracy and a Jewish state. It’s demographically impossible.
I’m not the one making such anti-Israel decisions. They’re being made as I write by right wing crazies within Israel and many of their credulous supporters around the world. I hope you aren’t one of them.
Living in a multi-ethnic democracy without kneejerk ethnic preferences isn’t that bad. That’s what the U.S. seeks to do.
In the 1990s, the left-wing “crazies“ were doing everything they could to give the Palestinians a state, even in the midst of almost daily terror attacks. This is what ultimately led to Netanyahu‘s first term as Prime Minister, as people began to lose faith in the peace process. and voted for the right wing parties.
The left wing never lost hope, even after the failure to implement the Oslo accords. When they regained power in 2000 and again in 2008, they tried again to give the Palestinians estate, but the Palestinians only saw negotiations as a tactic to eliminate Israel. Whatever concessions the Israelis made, the Arabs demanded more.
Since October 7, no Israeli in his right mind sees the possibility of an independent Palestinian state.
I can’t emphasize enough – the two state solution is a two state delusion.
Is all of that what led the Israelis to murder their courageous Prime Minister, Rabin, and replace him with wannabes whose hero is the thankfully dead terrorist Meir Kahane (or worse yet, Ben-Gvir’s hero Baruch Goldstein)? We all recognize that Netanyahu is no more than a nasty thug.
I agree with you and also don’t see any possibility of a Palestinian state. Only a one state solution with equal numbers of Arabs and Jews is now possible. The right wing crazies will seek to follow the apartheid South Africa Bantustan template but it will of course fail.
On to one state for two equal tribes. The state of the Semitic people, half of whom are from the Jewish tribe and half whom who aren’t.
It’s not my idea. It’s the result of the right wingers seizing control of Israel and effectively destroying the possibility of a Jewish state existing as any sort of democracy.
I’d encourage anyone with a US passport in Israel to come home to their homeland in American and rejoin our incredible mosaic. No need to serve in the foreign IDF military. The U.S. military offers abundant opportunities to serve one’s country.
That opening statement, I’m sure you are aware, is inflammatory. What do you mean “lead Israelis?“ it was one person who did it. Did Americans kill John F. Kennedy or William McKinley?
At this time, it’s not just the right wing crazies who don’t see the possibility of Palestinian State. Most of the former support of the peace process have been totally disillusioned since October 7. They have started listening to what the Palestinians want . The Palestinians want the Jews out. I know it offends your democratic sensibilities – it offends mine also – but the Arabs living in the West Bank in Gaza would be living under an oppressive government, whether it’s run by Jews or Arabs. Just look at the rest of the Arab world, strong central authoritarian government or religious fanatics in charge. It turns out, sadly, democracy is not for everyone.
As for serving in the American military – two of my sons tried to join the US military and they were turned down for minor physical disabilities. I thank God they were. The US has mismanaged military missions ever since Vietnam. I believe that the leadership is incompetent and/or hamstrung by the political leadership.
People in Israel, with a US passport, I can say, are almost universally grateful that they are American citizens and have no complaints about their time in the US. But they see Israel as their homeland. You would have to have an understanding of Jewish history and the Jewish religion to understand this.
In any case, they are not too anxious to come back to a country where anarchist neo-Marxists threaten Jews and have taken over college campuses.
Many excellent points, Pat, clearly and succinctly stated. I want a bumper sticker that says "America First: Decolonize America First." And yes, it is contradictory to support Palestinian nationalism while condemning Jewish nationalism. Because of Jewish history, Israel should be the last place on the planet to de-nationalize, let everyone else go first. This is why we should support Jewish settlers in the occupied territories. Arab citizens now live safely in a Jewish state. We will be ready for a Palestinian state when Jews can live safely there, i.e. when we've arrived at the time of peace and brotherhood among all peoples. And this might take a while.
We also need to be clear that whenever very senior Israeli cabinet members vigorously support the concept of Eretz Israel, meaning the expansion of Israel to include Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem, they mean exactly “from the river to the sea” and they aren’t talking playful multiculturalism or a much larger country with equal rights for all under its dominion.
Right now almost everyone who is an Israeli Jew or a supporter of Zionism seems content to have the Muslims and Christians of the other tribe in
Palestine bear the consequences of all of this while warning of the possibility that some consequences could impact the Jewish tribe in Palestine.
Gazans problem is Hamas- the West Bank is a different matter - your 'the Jewsih tribe in Palestine' denies Israel's right to exist. I say: free the hostages, recognise Israel, call out Hamas and Hezbollah - tell the UN to do its job in dealing with Hezbollah in policing the zone north of Israel .
By Palestine I mean the land that is what you may refer to as Eretz Israel. An Israel that expands from the river to the sea to include Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem and have as many or more Arabs in the country as Jews.
Israel within its borders (believe it or not it does have borders) has a great right to exist and it should withdraw the 800,000 Israeli Jews (none of Israel’s Arab citizens are illegal squatters outside the borders) to live inside of Israel.
I would no more deny Israel’s right to exist as a fully, totally sovereign country than you would deny Palestine’s right to exist as a fully, totally sovereign nation.
While the two of us are enlightened and not genocidal on this, Netanyahu, Smotrech, Ben-Gvir and many other senior Israeli Jewish leaders aren’t. They routinely say they would never accept a sovereign Palestine and talk up from the river to the sea Israel. We know any such talk is by definition genocidal.
Exactly, they mean a one-state solution where non-Jews don't have any political rights. If the right to self-determination applies to allow Israel to exist, it also applies to allow a Palestinian state to exist.
Thanks for this article, and you're absolutely right. The one state solution sounds appealing, but unfortunately will not work in the real world. I also cannot understand how people can scream about the Palestinian right to self-determination while at the same time trying to deny that right to Israel.
It is an uphill battle between the As A Jews and the moral equivalence useful idiots. Unfortunately, our current failed regime will sell itself to any piece of leftist dogma or trend, in order to continue itself. We must stand tall, even if we have to stand alone and be unloved by the corrupt elites…
The holocaust essentially proved Zionism right. And the 'special' treatment Jews receive, along with calls to dissolve or dismantle the state of Israel, are all the proof we need that it should and must exist.
There are so many cogent points here, and so many flashes of brilliance, one would have to quote the entire piece to say which were the standouts. Jewish nationalism = bad; Palestinian nationalism = good is an utterly brilliant exposure of the hypocrisy of the Free Palestine rent-a-crowd.
You are very kind. Thank you.
yes, yes, yes, and yes
A dear friend who said she'd read a history book provided by my dual-national Zionist husband told me the Brits were the reason the Jews got a state, so wasn't there a small question about the Jewish right to self-determination? I didn't know what history she thought she read but reminded her that the Brits abandoned the Mandate and left the small question up to the U.N. People think what they are conditioned to think. I especially like your point about good and bad nationalisms, yes, yes, yes, and yes.
Great piece Pat. Thank you
Nearly half the Jewish population of Israel are descended from those that were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries. While in the fantasy of some left wingers they are "Arab Jews," they and their parents are the ones who know the Arabs best. That is why they are the most supportive of the hard line, right wing parties. They are the ones who know best how Jews would be treated if they were a minority in a newly created country,
Of course one only needs to see how Shia treat Sunni, how Arabs treat Kurds, how Syrians and Sudanese treat their own citizens to know that a 22nd Arab country would not only be a nightmare for the Jews, but also for its Arab inhabitants.
By the way, Dan, what you called boundaries, and what many people call the 1967 borders, are no such thing. They were the 1949 cease fire lines between Israel and Jordan. There never was a peace settlement or a negotiated border. The Jordan River became the new 1967 cease-fire line. There never was a legal Arab entity that controlled East Jerusalem and what is called the West Bank.
Sadly, for the Arabs, there is no way that Israel can relinquish military control over Judea and Samaria so there is really very little choice but to leave the Arabs in what are essentially Bantustans. They never will have the equivalent of a Nelson Mandela because that is not part of their culture. South African blacks were essentially raised in an English educational system, which had the seeds of human rights and the ideals of democracy. The Arabs are being raised in their schools to have hatred of Jews, and under the Islamist, or previously the secular terrorists, the PLO, they were taught that ultimately Israel must disappear, and the best way to do accomplish that is armed struggle ,
It should be noted that 95% of the Arabs are living in the area designated area A , which is under the control of the Palestinian Authority, so they already, in a sense, have her own government. Regardless, it cannot be independent because that would allow Hamas to take over and give Iran a foothold in that area, which would present a threat not only to Israel, but also to Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
I've been an American citizen since I was born here in the 1950s. We have our fair share of "nutty racists" in our multi-ethnic democracy, including some current members of Congress. And some with knee-jerk ethnic preferences.
I also lived in Israel for several years, though not recently.
Your comparison of "Indigenous" Arabs to the experience of black South Africans during apartheid shows me you seriously misunderstand the history of the Middle East, especially the Jewish experience there.
I’m glad you’ve remained an American and are part of our difficult but great mosaic. Please stay and be an active participant as we seek to address the huge challenges confronting America. The United States is your homeland, just as it is mine.
Obviously, my comparison of Israel, as a country based on severe ethnic preferences, Bantustans and apartheid, to South Africa annoys you. But one simple fact is undeniable. If Eretz Israel ever takes place, and that is the clear intent of the right wing Zionists who now dominate Israeli politics, there will be at least as many Arabs under Israel’s governance as there are Jews. The proposition that the Palestinians will somehow continue to be stateless people while “from the river to the sea” Israel continues as “the Jewish state” defies reality.
In one way or the other Eretz Israel will be a state of all of its people. You and I can be honest with each other and say that its possible that half or more of these people will be essentially politically disenfranchised in a way that is not very different from blacks in South Africa in the 1980s. This cannot be a source of pride for people inclined to support Israel, and it obviously won’t be tenable when it comes to the continued huge charitable support of Israel by American taxpayers.
Given what you say one wonders why Israel seems to be moving mindlessly in a direction that is destined to make anything but a one state solution, with that state containing as many Arabs as Jews, impossible?
Israel has borders. 800,000 Israeli Jews now live illegally outside those borders in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. If the Israelis want to live in a Jewish democracy, move those squatters back within their country’s boundaries.
Or change the boundaries. Israel is going to have to keep military control over those areas in any case. I’ve been to the areas, there’s actually plenty of room for more people to move to. And, considering the distinct possibility that, due in great part to the anti-Jewish sentiment being spread by a growing Muslim population in Europe and America, Israel will actually need to use some of that space to settle new immigrants.
How long have you been opposed to the existence of Israel?
Nonsense comment. I have no problem with the existence of Israel within its boundaries.
That said I fully expect a single state in all of Palestine since the 800,000 Israeli Jews (and zero Israeli Arabs) living illegally outside of Israel have scrambled the egg such that a two state solution isn’t possible.
That single state will have as many Arabs (Muslims and Christians) as Jews so it will certainly no longer be a Jewish state. Instead it will be a state with two tribes on one land. Some of the nuttier racists in Israel may try to create a system of ethnic repression and Bantustans but that cannot be sustained, as we saw in South Africa. As the ANC did, indigenous Arabs will resist and find their Mandela.
It’s been long understood that Israel could be a Jewish state and a democracy within its national borders. When it seeks to expand to incorporate everything from the river to the sea it cannot be a democracy and a Jewish state. It’s demographically impossible.
I’m not the one making such anti-Israel decisions. They’re being made as I write by right wing crazies within Israel and many of their credulous supporters around the world. I hope you aren’t one of them.
Living in a multi-ethnic democracy without kneejerk ethnic preferences isn’t that bad. That’s what the U.S. seeks to do.
In the 1990s, the left-wing “crazies“ were doing everything they could to give the Palestinians a state, even in the midst of almost daily terror attacks. This is what ultimately led to Netanyahu‘s first term as Prime Minister, as people began to lose faith in the peace process. and voted for the right wing parties.
The left wing never lost hope, even after the failure to implement the Oslo accords. When they regained power in 2000 and again in 2008, they tried again to give the Palestinians estate, but the Palestinians only saw negotiations as a tactic to eliminate Israel. Whatever concessions the Israelis made, the Arabs demanded more.
Since October 7, no Israeli in his right mind sees the possibility of an independent Palestinian state.
I can’t emphasize enough – the two state solution is a two state delusion.
Is all of that what led the Israelis to murder their courageous Prime Minister, Rabin, and replace him with wannabes whose hero is the thankfully dead terrorist Meir Kahane (or worse yet, Ben-Gvir’s hero Baruch Goldstein)? We all recognize that Netanyahu is no more than a nasty thug.
I agree with you and also don’t see any possibility of a Palestinian state. Only a one state solution with equal numbers of Arabs and Jews is now possible. The right wing crazies will seek to follow the apartheid South Africa Bantustan template but it will of course fail.
On to one state for two equal tribes. The state of the Semitic people, half of whom are from the Jewish tribe and half whom who aren’t.
It’s not my idea. It’s the result of the right wingers seizing control of Israel and effectively destroying the possibility of a Jewish state existing as any sort of democracy.
I’d encourage anyone with a US passport in Israel to come home to their homeland in American and rejoin our incredible mosaic. No need to serve in the foreign IDF military. The U.S. military offers abundant opportunities to serve one’s country.
That opening statement, I’m sure you are aware, is inflammatory. What do you mean “lead Israelis?“ it was one person who did it. Did Americans kill John F. Kennedy or William McKinley?
At this time, it’s not just the right wing crazies who don’t see the possibility of Palestinian State. Most of the former support of the peace process have been totally disillusioned since October 7. They have started listening to what the Palestinians want . The Palestinians want the Jews out. I know it offends your democratic sensibilities – it offends mine also – but the Arabs living in the West Bank in Gaza would be living under an oppressive government, whether it’s run by Jews or Arabs. Just look at the rest of the Arab world, strong central authoritarian government or religious fanatics in charge. It turns out, sadly, democracy is not for everyone.
As for serving in the American military – two of my sons tried to join the US military and they were turned down for minor physical disabilities. I thank God they were. The US has mismanaged military missions ever since Vietnam. I believe that the leadership is incompetent and/or hamstrung by the political leadership.
People in Israel, with a US passport, I can say, are almost universally grateful that they are American citizens and have no complaints about their time in the US. But they see Israel as their homeland. You would have to have an understanding of Jewish history and the Jewish religion to understand this.
In any case, they are not too anxious to come back to a country where anarchist neo-Marxists threaten Jews and have taken over college campuses.
Many excellent points, Pat, clearly and succinctly stated. I want a bumper sticker that says "America First: Decolonize America First." And yes, it is contradictory to support Palestinian nationalism while condemning Jewish nationalism. Because of Jewish history, Israel should be the last place on the planet to de-nationalize, let everyone else go first. This is why we should support Jewish settlers in the occupied territories. Arab citizens now live safely in a Jewish state. We will be ready for a Palestinian state when Jews can live safely there, i.e. when we've arrived at the time of peace and brotherhood among all peoples. And this might take a while.
We also need to be clear that whenever very senior Israeli cabinet members vigorously support the concept of Eretz Israel, meaning the expansion of Israel to include Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem, they mean exactly “from the river to the sea” and they aren’t talking playful multiculturalism or a much larger country with equal rights for all under its dominion.
Right now almost everyone who is an Israeli Jew or a supporter of Zionism seems content to have the Muslims and Christians of the other tribe in
Palestine bear the consequences of all of this while warning of the possibility that some consequences could impact the Jewish tribe in Palestine.
Gazans problem is Hamas- the West Bank is a different matter - your 'the Jewsih tribe in Palestine' denies Israel's right to exist. I say: free the hostages, recognise Israel, call out Hamas and Hezbollah - tell the UN to do its job in dealing with Hezbollah in policing the zone north of Israel .
By Palestine I mean the land that is what you may refer to as Eretz Israel. An Israel that expands from the river to the sea to include Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem and have as many or more Arabs in the country as Jews.
Israel within its borders (believe it or not it does have borders) has a great right to exist and it should withdraw the 800,000 Israeli Jews (none of Israel’s Arab citizens are illegal squatters outside the borders) to live inside of Israel.
I would no more deny Israel’s right to exist as a fully, totally sovereign country than you would deny Palestine’s right to exist as a fully, totally sovereign nation.
While the two of us are enlightened and not genocidal on this, Netanyahu, Smotrech, Ben-Gvir and many other senior Israeli Jewish leaders aren’t. They routinely say they would never accept a sovereign Palestine and talk up from the river to the sea Israel. We know any such talk is by definition genocidal.
Exactly, they mean a one-state solution where non-Jews don't have any political rights. If the right to self-determination applies to allow Israel to exist, it also applies to allow a Palestinian state to exist.
Non-Jewish citizens of Israel have the same rights as Israeli Jews.
Thanks for this article, and you're absolutely right. The one state solution sounds appealing, but unfortunately will not work in the real world. I also cannot understand how people can scream about the Palestinian right to self-determination while at the same time trying to deny that right to Israel.
Well said.
Excellent as always
It is an uphill battle between the As A Jews and the moral equivalence useful idiots. Unfortunately, our current failed regime will sell itself to any piece of leftist dogma or trend, in order to continue itself. We must stand tall, even if we have to stand alone and be unloved by the corrupt elites…